Fishless or Fish-in cycling.

I admit, I'm a big proponent of cycling a tank with fish. I too admit, I've not tried fish-less cycling. One member on here just asked me if I had tried fish-less and I responded in this manner:
No I haven't because: 1. I'm a bit too impatient and 2. I believe fish poo is a vital element in establishing the elements of the bio's. Poo=ammonia+bacteria=Nitrite+bacteria=Nitrates. Plus plants using the ammonia (best ammonia reduction tool).. plus using some of the Nitrates and creating CO2. Where am I going off course in this?

Fishless cycling: (Fill in the blank)...
Bill

I can say that strictly from a humane perspective a fish-less cycle is the way to go.

Depending on how you do a fish cycle many people will do water changes so as to not kill off all the fish (or any for that matter) and this works just fine.
You will read conflicting view points on water change during cycle vs none.
My take on it is that the bacteria is not really in the water so doing water changes won't effect their concentration all that much. As long as you don't remove ALL of the ammonia/nitrites the bacteria will still continue to bloom, not to mention the fish are a constant source of new ammonia.
This would in effect be the most humane way to do a fish cycle (likely not losing any fish at all but stressing them a bit)

With that in mind a fish-less cycle means you don't have to do any water changes and can just sit back. Adding small amount of pure ammonia, fish food, fresh shrimp, ect... until the tank is cycled.

If you seed the tank well both routes can take about the same amount of time. I wouldn't say one has ever been faster then the other.

I admit to having done fish cycles because it is a pain to take readings and remember to add more ammonia to the tank.

*What I do* A tank that has no fish and won't have any for awhile... I will add pure ammonia and kick off the cycle. If at any point I need to put fish in that tank I will water change down to safe levels for fish and add them in. The fish can then help to complete the cycle that will likely be very quick. Just my thoughts.

I do it the same as you williem, i get bait fish from a fishing bait store and i use them for fishing when we go too so its a good way to keep my bait alive. They are kept in such shoddy conditions anyways that only the strong ones that can handle it are still alive at the bait store. usually out of like 2 dozen only 1-4 die. the rest go on my hook :)

I also am a huge fan of using hornwort to help cycle.

I like that idea Keelo! I suppose if you wanted to keep bait fish alive it would be an outstanding way to cycle a tank! I know that one big problem people have is that they are told to cycle tanks with goldfish or other cheap fish and then wouldn't you know it... they don't die and the next thing is they have a tank full of fish they don't really want. Which of course is a point for fish-less but if you picked out some small fish that you wouldn't mind either keeping or losing then I suppose it would all work out as well.

when I started my 125 about a month ago, I added the bioballs to it (which I had kept in my 275 when I took the 125 down) and a week later I added feeder minows to is. I will readily use feeder fish to cycle a tank because 1 they are cheap, and 2 if they die, the would have died even if I didnt use them as feeders die in the store or when a customer buys them to feed their aggressive fish. Right now I still have 3 feeders in my 125, the crawfish ate the other three. My view is if they live, they live, of not, then they were usefull in cylcing and feeding.

well heres a few methods ive tried in the past with a 1 month time-stamp on each of them:

1) Put in a bunch of cheap Feeder guppies cuz theyre 10cents each and i dont really care or not if they die, let em rot if they do die (think of it this way, their primary fate is death ie being eaten, at least this way they have a guantlet's chance of survival) **note**but ive done this before with neons/ cardinal tetras instead of feeder guppies; i know im an evil rich jerk

2) Put in a bunch of fish food to let rot, no fish, but use ghost shrimp cuz theyre 9cents each

3) I tossed in a couple big fat earthworms and let them rot/liquify you can combine this with #2 also

4) or get a bunch of "dirty water" (from a healthy tank of course) from a friend who is doing a water change and get some nastiness out by squeezing the sponge from a filter and putting that in your tank also to jump start the bio cycle.

sacrifices to the aquarium gods i suppose. Although, with no doubt, the clever alternative of fish-less cycling does work with the novel and effective idea of using pure ammonia with store bought bacteria; i would rather cycle my tanks with my tried and true methods.

Ultimately its a choice of your own preferences.

I didn't want to come off as heartless regarding the toll on the fish but.. I've yet to lose a fish via cycling. In fact I've only lost 2 since I've been back into the hobby and that was because they were under the illusion they could exist outside of the tank on the floor! (2 cardinals.) and that was from my established tank.. I've since addressed the gapes in the hood with fiberglass screening.

Strike.. I'm no chemist but I do know where the ammonia comes from via fish.. from the bottle? I'm not so sure.. LOL... Maybe it's because I'm so cheap or maybe it's my leanings towards as natural an existence as possible but my preferred way is to let nature take it's course as much as possible.

As I stated in another thread, I'll be setting up a 48Corner dwarf cichlid tank this week in the Walstad method (if I get the caves built and there is no excuse there as I have all the materials on hand now).. and I now have an "advanced" API test kit and I'll be able to log the water conditions on a twice a day basis...
A complete photo journal with NO EDITING will be kept.. maybe not shared though!........<grin>..

Cycle fish... I inherited a pair of male dwarf Gourami's that I just can't get rid of .. beautiful fish but no one wants them! (Auction item in May).. I can't locate any females for them and they constantly build bubble nests in my cycling tanks!.. So they aren't stressed out too much.. I'd like to pick up some barbs as their replacement because I have an aversion to barbs.. Annoying guys in my mind...

Strike.. I'm no chemist but I do know where the ammonia comes from via fish.. from the bottle? I'm not so sure.. LOL... Maybe it's because I'm so cheap or maybe it's my leanings towards as natural an existence as possible but my preferred way is to let nature take it's course as much as possible.


The ammonia is just plain ol pure ammonia you buy by the gallon for a dollar at the drug store. It could cycle a thousand tanks in one bottle. In terms of price there is really nothing cheaper.

I have always done fishless cycles.

you can actually buy a bottle of special blend by Micro Lift its a complete ecosystem in a bottle it will cycle a tank in 24hrs i just started using it and works well but i still let the tank cycle a few xtra days after adding the microlift

jessecichlidguy wrote:

you can actually buy a bottle of special blend by Micro Lift its a complete ecosystem in a bottle it will cycle a tank in 24hrs i just started using it and works well but i still let the tank cycle a few xtra days after adding the microlift

That's pretty neat. I just gave the "newer" sea chem product a try. They call it stability and it is suppose to be a cycle booster. I was very skeptical about it's effectiveness based off the failure that other products that claim the same thing have gone through. This was my first attempt at an artificial bacteria and surprisingly it worked well. Within one week the ammonia filtering bacteria was well established and producing nitrites quickly. The nitrites filtering bacteria are taking longer to establish but you only use the product for one week and after that the natural process takes over. It is not meant to replace but rather help kick start things.

Much of what I would say on the subject has already been touched on, but I will offer this:

With just a little planning month to month as to what you might do fish-wise, you should never have to have an 'empty' tank running to cycle it in (unless you're just getting started and this is your first tank). Except for the new 50g project I've undertaken, which I want to keep separated for purposes of evaluation, I've 'cycled' all of my new tanks before I ever set them up. I just run the new tank-to-be's principal filter on an established tank (in addition to its regular filtration) for four to six weeks before setting up the new tank.

I know everyone has their own opinions. I havn't cycled a tank in 35 years,
Let me explain. I have always had tanks set up, if I get a new tank, I move filters around and
use water from an already established tank. I don't use gravel all are bare bottom tanks.. I usually try to keep the fish load down, and feed lightly. I'm sure there is quite a few of you out there that do the same. Just my opinion. Thank you

Okay, I'll bite and add my two whole cents.

I agree with the "seeder" products. Tetra has a product out called SafeStart that runs you about $20 for a bottle that will "Cycle" a 75 gallon tank (or a 55 and a 20 tall ) I threw a bottle in a 55g (new water, new gravel, new filter) and gave it an hour to process before chucking in a dozen rosy barbs. They lived. Gave it a day and checked my levels. Everything was good across the board, although my water was a bit soft, threw in some plants and have had it up for a month fully stocked with no problems. =)

"fish" cycles always left me feeling guilty and with more fish than I could find proper homes for =<

I'm just gonna throw this out there. I have not tried it yet, but I'm curious if anybody else has. Urinating in the tank. I was told by a friend on mine that he uses this method and has for 20 years. I know it sounds disgusting but when you think about it urine has ammonia and good bacteria. He told me he uses 1 cup per 100 gallons. So let's hear your opinions.

fish head 378 wrote:

I'm just gonna throw this out there. I have not tried it yet, but I'm curious if anybody else has. Urinating in the tank. I was told by a friend on mine that he uses this method and has for 20 years. I know it sounds disgusting but when you think about it urine has ammonia and good bacteria. He told menus uses 1 cup per 100 gallons. So let's hear your opinions.

I've also heard of this. I wouldn't try it, personally.

Humane urine contains Urea which in water break down/gives off ammonia so it would work BUT and I mean big BUT here... for $1-2 for a gallon of pure ammonia... that would do the same thing... and NOT contain any other possible entertainments (even if your urine is pretty clean) that might be in there...

I guess I may have left out what Ornate so nicely corrected. I'd never think of taking a sterile tank off the rack, pouring in new water.. and expecting fish to go without severe stresses. I do not swap out filters but rather the filtration media. That establishes my bacteria.. then I introduce a few fish to generate waste which creates ammonia which satisfies some of the bacterial needs from the filter.. then on to nitrites/nitrates etc. I just don't understand the position of adding a bottle of ammonia to create the start up stage, then introducing yet another chemical to address that stage and yet another chem to address that stage when the whole freaking planet doesn't have that heavy a hand in the process... Soil/water/waste/plant.. pretty freaking simplified I know but it seems to have worked out pretty well so far.. well.. until mankind starts messing with it...

Bill you are over thinking this...

The ammonia is "the fish" Pure ammonia is a substitute for the fish, the fish waste, other debris. It is just as natural as letting the fish do it's thing it is only a direct chemical form the rest of the process is exactly the same.

That's all you need the bacteria comes from the air and nearly every surface in the tank.

When we say that you can add a booster we mean just that a booster. It is not needed or necessary. It just makes the cycle faster... so you can if you choose add ONE(ammonia that is exactly the same as the one that comes from the fish) or you can add TWO ammonia and some form of bio enhancer but again it is not needed it would serve to speed up both a fish-less or fish cycle...

This is suggesting that you not have a filter/media source ready to go. To me if you use an established filter/filter media your not doing a real cycle.

The entire gang of bacteria is there to start and if the bio-load of the new tank is the same as the old tank or close the cycle would be non-existent or very short.

To me a cycle means fresh tank... just put water in and turned the new filter on. Then the question add fish right away or not... all these problem that comes from not cycling a tank and all the fish dieing are the prime example of this and I would venture to say the VAST majority of people fall into this category. They have no knowledge of the nitrogen cycle. So when I hear fish vs fish-less cycle I think and I believe most examples that are given are of a fresh start.

What's funny is that when someone comes on here and says help all my fish died we all say "did you cycle your tank!?!" Little did the person know they just did a fish cycle in the tank... we then proceed to tell them they need to cycle their tank and get their levels in check haha. So we essentially say in this example that the fish died because they did not cycle their tank (even though they were doing just that--they just didn't know it) and tell them to cycle it!

Strike .. here is where we begin to mince words but not theories. If I'm talking to someone about fishless or fish-in cycles, I'm assuming they are have some basic knowledge of the cycle process. In no way, shape or form would I suggest a fish-in cycle to a sterile environment nor to a new user without access a seeding process. If they give me a blank stare when asked about "cycle".. I'll steer them to the chem process..
My query was addressed to those on this forum rather than the general public. Bill

Well of course if you put it in those terms then yes... the problem is that anyone who is told to cycle their tank just hits search and types cycle... if you look on here and throughout the internet there are volumes on how to cycle a tank.

Unless someone said "I have an established filter/gravel/media and what to know how I should cycle my tank" I think it is safe to assume they are just starting out.

Even on these forums we have droves of people that seek help and don't know a thing about the nitrogen cycle. If I was one of those people and read your starting topic I would think "good question I just started and want to know this too!"

When I setup a new rental tank, the customer won't wait for a tank to cycle. They want it now. I will put one of my sponge filters in the tank and a few fish for the first week. I'll test it and add a few more fish each week till I get it stocked. I have also added Fritz Turbo for freshwater or saltwater. I will setup the tank today and add all my fish tomorrow, with the proper dose of Fritz. Works every time, BAM instant fish tank!

i never heard of Fritz Turbo, sounds great

Fairly expensive stuff hehe. I mean it is suppose to be live bacteria so they have to ship it 2 day mail. Very cool though.

a tank is always "cycling". the basic integration of scientific principals of chemical energy transfer can apply to a physics analogy. a brand spanking new Fly-wheel needs to rev up the rpms to get the cycle goin. whether u use a hand powered crank shaft or a gas powered turbine or an electric powered turbine. all in all once u build up to the right rpms the momentum takes the same amount energy for all the machines to maintain. The Deciding factors are: time, or preference, or being a PETA hippie, or being a cruel Fascist, or six or half a dozen. lol different means but always the same End