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 Lost seven angels in four days

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D.Gray
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
D.Gray

Posts : 183
Location : Boardman, Oregon
Favorite Fish: : live ones.. And shrimp.

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PostSubject: Lost seven angels in four days   Lost seven angels in four days Icon_minitime9/10/2012, 11:50 am

I have lost one or two here or there since I stocked the tank with them (30 angels in a 75 gallon tank with the intent to sell the ones that don't pair up) and figured it was just from the shock of transport. A few days ago I added a small clown pleco to eat some hair algae, and some Pepper Cories from another tank, and now I keep finding dead angels.

After watching what seems to be happening is that the Albino Rainbow shark is being territorial and chasing after the fish and running into them causing trauma injuries. There are no outward signs of disease or parisites on the angels, and my water parameters are very good (no amonia or nitrite, under 40ppm nitrate, ph of about 7.4-7.6 checked using two test kits). The tank is filtered by a Marineland Emporer 280 power filter with bio-wheel and a Marineland 350 canister filter so I easily have enough filtration for 200 gallons of water; also when I fill the tank it is with filtered water that has no chlorine and only .03 ppm or less chloramine which I dose with Stress Coat anyway.

I have done a 35% water change and put some garlic powder in the water (less than a tablespoon), and I feed premium foods (Ken's Angel food flakes, Ken's catfish pellets, Ken's wafers for carnivors).

Looks like a ride into town to drop the Albino Rainbow shark off at the local fish store.

Dave
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Dr. Who
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Posts : 635
Location : Cancun Mexico

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PostSubject: Re: Lost seven angels in four days   Lost seven angels in four days Icon_minitime9/10/2012, 4:02 pm

What are the angels doing? Are they hovering at the surface or the bottom with claped fins?
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D.Gray
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
D.Gray

Posts : 183
Location : Boardman, Oregon
Favorite Fish: : live ones.. And shrimp.

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PostSubject: Re: Lost seven angels in four days   Lost seven angels in four days Icon_minitime9/10/2012, 5:45 pm

No clapped fins, no indication of parasite or disease. As far as behavior they are all over the tank as normal; even begging food when someone walks by the tank.

They did hover at the bottom of the tank when I did another water change, but quickly resumed their normal behavior.

I have removed the Rainbow shark after seeing it chase another bunch (it is sitting in a large tupperware (two gallon) with an air stone until later this afternoon when I can take it to the Local fish store.

The Cory cats are swimming all over displaying spawning behavior, the catfish is staying in his cave as normal (even when the angels go inside his cave he doesn't act agressive to them).

The angels are picking at pond snails and their egg deposits on the bottom and also picking at the algae and snails that are on the plants.

Their behavior and overal apearance was one of the first things I started looking at, and then for any disease or parasites I could see like worms, ich, velvet, fecal matter that looked clear and was stringy.

If the rainbow shark isn't the culprit it could be other angels as I have heard of angels killing each other when it comes time to breed (males killing other males, females killing males they don't want to spawn with).

have lost a total of nine angels most quarter to 1/2 dollar sized, but one silver dollar sized angel today.

I did a 15 gallon water change yesterday and another 20 gallon water change today. I also made sure my filters were good and clean again as it has been almost a month since changing out the filter medium in the power filter and cleaning the canister filter.

Dave
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Dr. Who
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Posts : 635
Location : Cancun Mexico

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PostSubject: Re: Lost seven angels in four days   Lost seven angels in four days Icon_minitime9/10/2012, 8:08 pm

Dave your reply doesn't give me more questions. The shark may be your problem. You shouldn't do a water chamge and a filter change at the same time. The water changes also are wotking against you because your encouraging spawning and agressive behavior. Only other thing is you may have to many sexually active fish in one aquarium. Are you aware of how many gallons of water you need per pair to raise the fry?
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D.Gray
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
D.Gray

Posts : 183
Location : Boardman, Oregon
Favorite Fish: : live ones.. And shrimp.

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PostSubject: Re: Lost seven angels in four days   Lost seven angels in four days Icon_minitime9/10/2012, 9:07 pm

Got rid of the shark (traded for two small clown plecos).

I figured a 75 gallon tank should be enough for seven pairs to raise fry (10 gallon per pair). I may be wrong. My initial thought on the purchase of the angels was to grow them out from dime sized and then figure out the pairings and sell some of them off to the local fish store (they purchase from me on a cash basis as they know I take care of my animals and water parameters).

Since I removed the shark I haven't seen anymore dead or fish acting funny.

The angels have done some running at each other at low speed and some pushing of one another but no serious contact. I saw the shark chase down the angels with some speed.

Will see tomorrow if this was the culprit.

Unfortunately I don't know how to sex angel fish until they pair off (and then I only know I have a male and a female until I see spawning behavior). Angels aren't like swordtails, guppies or other fish where it is easy to tell the male from the female.

Dave


Dave
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Dr. Who
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First Lieutenant


Posts : 635
Location : Cancun Mexico

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PostSubject: Re: Lost seven angels in four days   Lost seven angels in four days Icon_minitime9/10/2012, 9:26 pm

Angels are not easy to sex. One trick I found is to feed them lots of black wotms late at nite. The ones that are fat in the morning should be females who are packing on eggs. Thats if they are mature enough to breed.
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D.Gray
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Staff Sergeant
D.Gray

Posts : 183
Location : Boardman, Oregon
Favorite Fish: : live ones.. And shrimp.

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PostSubject: Re: Lost seven angels in four days   Lost seven angels in four days Icon_minitime9/10/2012, 9:47 pm

I have fed some black worms, but was cautioned against feeding them in spring/ summer as they have more parasites during those seasons as they are filter feeders and there are more parasites as the water is warm. There are fewer parasitesin fall/winter due to the colder water killing them off.

I don't know about store bought blackworms as you would have to worry about the water quality in the worm hatchery (parasites, disease, other things you don't want to transport to your tank).

I have been feeding frozen brine shrimp, frozen food from San Fransisco Bay that is a general food along with Ken's fish flakes, Ken's carnivore pellets (for the Raphael striped cat), Ken's catfish pellets for the cories, and I was feeding algae wafers for the albino rainbow shark and may continue for the plecostomii (three clown plecostomus in the tank to eat some hair algae and other algae).

I have been watching the pepper cories perform some o fthe spawning behavior, and had not thought of water changes triggering spawning behavior in the angels as I was trying to cover all my bases as it was only an assumption that the rainbow shark was doing the damage.
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Dr. Who
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Location : Cancun Mexico

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PostSubject: Re: Lost seven angels in four days   Lost seven angels in four days Icon_minitime9/10/2012, 9:58 pm

Black worms are raise in cold water and shipped on ice. I buy 20 pounds weekly. I feed Angel pair nothing but black worms. Never had a problem. I store thr black worms in a frigde.
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D.Gray
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
D.Gray

Posts : 183
Location : Boardman, Oregon
Favorite Fish: : live ones.. And shrimp.

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PostSubject: Re: Lost seven angels in four days   Lost seven angels in four days Icon_minitime9/10/2012, 10:58 pm

Thanks :) I have put about three ounces of Black worms in the 75 gallon an ounce here and an ounce there and I have some in the gravel when I plant a plant or disturb the gravel I usually stir up one or three.



Dave
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Dr. Who
First Lieutenant
First Lieutenant


Posts : 635
Location : Cancun Mexico

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PostSubject: Re: Lost seven angels in four days   Lost seven angels in four days Icon_minitime9/11/2012, 4:54 am

Your comment on a 10 gal per to raise thr fry. That 10 gal will work for a week or two. You will need about 150 gals for each pair's spawn. Based on 300 fry per spawn. If you are getting a spawn every 7 days thats alot of gals. X7 I have in the past had 35 pairs breeding at one time. Many tanks, vats and ponds.
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D.Gray
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
D.Gray

Posts : 183
Location : Boardman, Oregon
Favorite Fish: : live ones.. And shrimp.

Lost seven angels in four days Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lost seven angels in four days   Lost seven angels in four days Icon_minitime9/12/2012, 2:00 pm

You mentioned hovering at the bottom of the tank. I notice some of this as they watch outside the tank, but when I come over to the tank they come right to the top to be fed (no I don't always feed them when they come to the top). What would this behavior mean? they do also swim around the tank eating food off the bottom of the tank, picking snails off of the plant leaves and artificial cave where the catfish lives.

I have noticed some "courting" behavior such as little tremmors and some head butting and gentle shoving.

The tank is 75 gallons with Three large sword plants (Melon Sword, Amazon Sword, and Argentine sword) along with an Anubias Barteri (broad leaf anubias), broad leaf ludwigia, micro chain sword, and a very small amount of cryptocorn (spelling?).



I also have pieces of ceramic tile in the tank laying on the substrate flat and leaning on a large rock and the artificial cave at an angle making two small caves as well as giving flat surfaces for any egg laying.

The only tank mates other than the other angels are a six inch Rapael striped cat, three pepper corries, and three small (two to two and a half inch) long clown plecostomus (purchased to eat some hair algae).

Dave
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Lost seven angels in four days Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lost seven angels in four days   Lost seven angels in four days Icon_minitime

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