breeding hybrids

First topic message reminder :

I just bought a tank recently that came with some interesting fish. The day after i set the tank up at my house I noticed that this hybrid


was breeding with a german red female and now she is holding eggs.. I think the males from the spawn could potentially be awesome candidates for all male tanks. Just something to talk about =)

Personally I think your fish look nice. Youve done a great job. Im starting an all male tank so atleast I wont have to worry with hybriding lol.

Dan W. wrote:

I would keep them to, the male is great looking. Have no opinion on Hybrids myself as sure is occurs in nature and who can fight mother nature. Let me know when you have fry to get rid of. lol

Very very very very rare for it to accure in nature. When I say this I am not trying to be rude by any means but you might want to get to know a little about hybrids. Educate yourself on the subject.

Dr. Who wrote:

I thought hybrids were cars and trucks. LOL

They are

jake wrote:

There's another aspect which no-one has mentioned.Think about it.they're not restocking the lake.they're raping it.They take fish from the lake everyday to sell for aquariums.If you were to crossbreed and come up with a new species that in this trendy hobby everyone will want,that's bad for the export business.They wont get as many orders to harvest.Also,breeders wont be happy if you create a new breed,cuz you'll get the money,not them.I'm thinking,the guy who created a flowerhorn is probably doin' allright I doubt he's losin sleep cuz he crossbred some fish.I am a breeder,and have crossbred.No I didnt get struck by lightning and people love my fish.Oh by the way,it could just be racism!BTW I sure dont appreciate it when someone says my fish are ,so eat

that is an opinion by you which is much apperciated here...but far from a fact.... Also who is the person that created flowerhorns? If he or she was doing so good I think we would know who he or she is. Let mother nature take it's corse. Your fish IMO are nothing I would want to keep or even give to friends for free. They are trash to me and thats what I would do with them....Throw them away. I could show you pictures of 1,000s of African Cichlids with far much more beauty then what you have in your pics. Selling hybrids should be illegal.

I don't like Hybreds . Just sayin'
Ray

what more can I say. If you got them keep them to yourself. Dont disperse them into the hobby.

I say that hybrids are
I say those that breed and disperse hybrids are also
I say those that say hybrids aren't a big deal are

I'm just telling you how I feel. My "Fish Club" the HCCC seems to be one of the very few fish clubs in America that has taken a stand against hybrids. A few have even promoted allowing hybrids (ACA) thinking it will bring more $ and members to the club. Most have just said, "We'll turn the other cheek." Well I can tell you that the stance the HCCC has taken will keep me around forever!

Hybrids SUCK!

I agree JB,


USA Fishbox don't play around either. Hybrids will not be sold here.

I get a lot of heat for speaking my mind on hybrids but they are what they are.

KMX trust me you and Fishbox will benefit in the long run from your stance! Stay strong and keep to your guns! FishBox has a great rep and is going to be a monster in the fish world not that you guys already aren't!

For those of you who staunchly oppose hybrids - can you point me in the direction of any reading material that might educate me on the subject?

I ask because I have been seriously considering a blood parrot for my new tank as I find them extremely interesting.

But if there is some moral reason (high % of defects, deaths etc.) that might change my opinion, I'd love to read about it. If it is just "they aren't pure" -- that probably isn't enough to discourage me.

Purists generally don't appreciate what hybridizing has taught us all concerning the genetic inheritance of everything from bone structure to sex characteristics.

However, I'm not discounting their opinions, for without 'pure species' there would not be the variety of fish we can choose from.

Just remember as you go to your kitchen and make your next meal: those grains in your breads/noodles/cereals are all hybrids between species. That super-sweet corn is also a hybrid. These hybrids were stronger and more productive than their parent species, so they became the driving force behind our species going from hunter-gatherer to agricultural. So even the purists here on Fishbox support some forms of hybridization without even realizing it.

I'm a scientist first - fish keeper second. So my opinions on hybridization come primarily from the information that has been learned from it. After all, just a few decades ago, there were many who thought that it was bad for humans to 'hybridize' and that races were separate subspecies. I'm sure that no one here will now claim that it is 'hybridization' for a mixed couple to have children. So our knowledge on exactly what is hybridization and what is simply different phenotypes of the same species continues to grow and expand.

We can all agree to disagree on the ethics of it and what we allow in our own fishtanks. Thank god we live in a free society where we can have differing opinions.

As for finding information on particular hybrids. Simply search the internet.

Excerpt from an Article on General Hybridization:

Hybridisation between two closely related species is actually a common occurrence in nature. Many hybrid zones are known where the ranges of two species meet, and hybrids are continually produced in great numbers. These hybrid zones are useful as biological model systems for studying the mechanisms of speciation (Hybrid speciation). Recently DNA analysis of a bear shot by a hunter in the North West Territories confirmed the existence of naturally-occurring and fertile grizzly–polar bear hybrids.[17] There have been reports of similar supposed hybrids, but this is the first to be confirmed by DNA analysis. In 1943, Clara Helgason described a male bear shot by hunters during her childhood. It was large and off-white with hair all over its paws. The presence of hair on the bottom of the feet suggests it was a natural hybrid of Kodiak and Polar bear.

In some species, hybridisation plays an important role in evolutionary biology. While most hybrids are disadvantaged as a result of genetic incompatibility, the fittest survive, regardless of species boundaries. They may have a beneficial combination of traits allowing them to exploit new habitats or to succeed in a marginal habitat where the two parent species are disadvantaged. This has been seen in experiments on sunflower species. Unlike mutation, which affects only one gene, hybridisation creates multiple variations across genes or gene combinations simultaneously. Successful hybrids could evolve into new species within 50-60 generations. This leads some scientists to speculate that life is a genetic continuum rather than a series of self-contained species.

Where there are two closely related species living in the same area, less than 1 in 1000 individuals are likely to be hybrids because animals rarely choose a mate from a different species (otherwise species boundaries would completely break down). In some closely related species there are recognized "hybrid zones".

Some species of Heliconius butterflies exhibit dramatic geographical polymorphism of their wing patterns, which act as aposematic signals advertising their unpalatability to potential predators. Where different-looking geographical races abut, inter-racial hybrids are common, healthy and fertile. Heliconius hybrids can breed with other hybrid individuals and with individuals of either parental race. These hybrid backcrosses are disadvantaged by natural selection because they lack the parental form's warning coloration, and are therefore not avoided by predators.

A similar case in mammals is hybrid White-Tail/Mule Deer. The hybrids don't inherit either parent's escape strategy. White-tail Deer dash while Mule Deer bound. The hybrids are easier prey than the parent species.

In birds, healthy Galapagos Finch hybrids are relatively common, but their beaks are intermediate in shape and less efficient feeding tools than the specialised beaks of the parental species so they lose out in the competition for food. Following a major storm in 1983, the local habitat changed so that new types of plants began to flourish, and in this changed habitat, the hybrids had an advantage over the birds with specialised beaks - demonstrating the role of hybridization in exploiting new ecological niches. If the change in environmental conditions is permanent or is radical enough that the parental species cannot survive, the hybrids become the dominant form. Otherwise, the parental species will re-establish themselves when the environmental change is reversed, and hybrids will remain in the minority.

Natural hybrids may occur when a species is introduced into a new habitat. In Britain, there is hybridisation of native European Red Deer and introduced Chinese Sika Deer. Conservationists want to protect the Red Deer, but the environment favors the Sika Deer genes. There is a similar situation with White-headed Ducks and Ruddy Ducks.

- Jandy Smith

Thank you for that article, 2SciCrazed.

As I understand that article, it is entirely possible that a hybrid fish may be genetically superior to its two parents if it inherits traits that are beneficial to its specific environment.

But I would guess the debate here is that breeders are "playing god" to some degree and that the only trait they may be seeking is "cute" with no regard to the physical benefits? Or detriments...

I'm not morally opposed to playing god per say (keeping fish in a glass box in my living room is kind of just that in a way), so I guess my best bet is, just as you said, to research the specific hybrid I am interested in.

Yes, theRick, I do feel that you have coined it correctly about the 'playing god' idea. Granted, these same purists do not mind pure species that have been bred to have characteristics/genetics that make them totally unsuitable to survive in the wild. Examples are: Any of the fancy tailed goldfish, any of the long-finned bettas, any of the long-finned tetras/zebras. So the purists don't seem to mind the 'playing god' within a species - just if its between what is considered different species.

(I won't get into to flack I got when I mentioned mixing colors/tail types within the same species of betta. They thought I was 'hybridizing' - since they didn't bother to do their research prior to commenting)

Moral of the story - research the topic first before you do anything or say anything.

Here's something to consider about a "Blood Red" Parrot Cichlid, they can barely open and close their mouths!

Sure hybridization occurs in the wild... but A fish from Central America bred with a fish from Africa in a lab in Southeast Asia isn't really the same thing now is it? A Hap Sp.44 will breed with a sponge filter so putting it in a tank with any female other than it's own is a recipe for disaster...
JB

jb1edlover wrote:

but A fish from Central America bred with a fish from Africa in a lab in Southeast Asia isn't really the same thing now is it?

Of course it is not "the same thing" but that in and of itself doesn't mean its wrong -- at least not to me.

jb1edlover wrote:

Here's something to consider about a "Blood Red" Parrot Cichlid, they can barely open and close their mouths!

But that is something to consider. If it creates a physically disadvantaged fish - one that couldn't survive anywhere naturally - then I absolutely consider that a negative. I'll have to read more about the blood parrot as that may be the case.

Here's a site that may help answer your questions:

http://www.parrotcichlids.com/parrot-cichlid-information.asp

What gets me is when someone says hybrids are "frowned upon" in the business.It's hard to believe a Mod would say that.Obviously,they're being sold at just about every aquarium store,as well as Wal-Mart.A lot of the fish sold at stores arent even suitable for the aquarium in my opinion,and mixed africans can be found anywhere,petsmart,petsupermarket,petco,as well as any independant dealer.In addition,they supply not much info,sell you the meanest fish they can,often selling more aggressive species,(so you'll have to buy more when they kill or get killed.)
A responsible breeder can actually breed a less aggressive fish.What about these new africans flooding the market with longfins?how were they created?In a lab?With what kind of science?BTW,they are more aggressive than a typical peacock so be warned!!!Don't worry though.I'm already breeding them with less aggressive species.red stripe hybrid from store

BTW-breeding a hybrid doesn't mean you have to lose the original strain.

2Scicrazed your confusing mutation with hybrids. The long fins are mutations.

re:Who-2Scicrazed your confusing mutation with hybrids. The long fins are mutations.
Not always-be specific!

jake wrote:

What gets me is when someone says hybrids are "frowned upon" in the business.It's hard to believe a Mod would say that.Obviously,they're being sold at just about every aquarium store,as well as Wal-Mart.A lot of the fish sold at stores arent even suitable for the aquarium in my opinion,and mixed africans can be found anywhere,petsmart,petsupermarket,petco,as well as any independant dealer.In addition,they supply not much info,sell you the meanest fish they can,often selling more aggressive species,(so you'll have to buy more when they kill or get killed.)
A responsible breeder can actually breed a less aggressive fish.What about these new africans flooding the market with longfins?how were they created?In a lab?With what kind of science?BTW,they are more aggressive than a typical peacock so be warned!!!Don't worry though.I'm already breeding them with less aggressive species.red stripe hybrid from store

See now you are putting words in my mouth. I said fround upon in the hobby by true fish keepers.Said nothing about business.
This could go on forever. I am pretty sure everyone knows where I stand. Thanks for all opinions.

O.K. sorry I quoted you wrong.Please tell me what you think of this fish?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY9zzb-Twi0

Angel fish. Wild silver but now we have all the different colors. Swordtails are green in the wild. Now we have all the different colors. Platys or moons for the old timers are the same. Mutations not hybrids. I'm not questioning hybrids. All the fish your talking about are from Lake Malwai. All fish will mutate over time. Hybrids mostly come from milking a female and then milking a male to create a new fish. Aka. blood parrots. Yes two different spieces of the same family will cross breed.

Dr Who, what I was pointing out with the comparison between the Blood Parrot's jaw issue and the long-finned bettas/fancy goldfish was that in BOTH cases the fish produced are unsuitable for survival in a natural setting. But because one of the unsuitable traits is caused by species hybridization - some people on here will cry fowl and how horrible. Yet, the other unsuitable traits are viewed favorably - even though they also weaken the fish and shorten their lifespan (In the case of Orandas and Bubble eyes)

Oh, and FYW - butterfly koi ARE interspecies hybrids. That's where the fins came from. http://www.blueridgekoi.com/The-Origins-of-Butterfly-Koi-a-1.html

2SciCrazed your talking about fish sold in the hobby. All your livebearers fall under your statement. Angel fish and Danios also. With that all you could keep is ceneral american cichlids.

Interesting point 2sci-funny how I have the opposite problem.I guess the point is that crossbreeding can make the fish stronger or weaker.Did you guys know the Gov is hybridizing large mouth bass down here to make it more competitive with the Peacock bass,which btw is an invasive species that the Gov imported!?