breeding hybrids

First topic message reminder :

I just bought a tank recently that came with some interesting fish. The day after i set the tank up at my house I noticed that this hybrid


was breeding with a german red female and now she is holding eggs.. I think the males from the spawn could potentially be awesome candidates for all male tanks. Just something to talk about =)

Interesting point 2sci-funny how I have the opposite problem.I guess the point is that crossbreeding can make the fish stronger or weaker.Did you guys know the Gov is hybridizing large mouth bass down here to make it more competitive with the Peacock bass,which btw is an invasive species that the Gov imported!?

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What gets me is when someone says hybrids are "frowned upon" in the business.It's hard to believe a Mod would say that.Obviously,they're being sold at just about every aquarium store,as well as Wal-Mart.

Just because it's being sold doesn't make it right... they sell cigarettes, alcohol, (Sex if you live in Nevada). I can think of several fish stores that don't sell or promote hybrids. Those doing it for money are the worst ones IMO. I know we're never going to see eye to eye on this topic but I'm very passionate about it....

im a mod and i will say it too hybrids are ....... If breeders or scientist wanted hybrids they would have done it themselves.... as for stores selling them i have not seen a LFS near me sell hybrids nor a wal-mart.... so the deal with breeding fish and stickn to the same species for fry is to conserve and bring it back..... Breeding hybrids is part of the reason why some fish are becoming extinct.... So why not just get the same species and breed them for real or if you like the colors then buy a cichlid with color

The goverment are crooks... I would not put it past them.

All hybrids are

Dude I wouldnt but do not sell these or put them with others I got a pair of hybrids that almost mated with my convicts

2SciCrazed wrote:

Excerpt from an Article on General Hybridization:

Hybridisation between two closely related species is actually a common occurrence in nature. Many hybrid zones are known where the ranges of two species meet, and hybrids are continually produced in great numbers. These hybrid zones are useful as biological model systems for studying the mechanisms of speciation (Hybrid speciation). Recently DNA analysis of a bear shot by a hunter in the North West Territories confirmed the existence of naturally-occurring and fertile grizzly–polar bear hybrids.[17] There have been reports of similar supposed hybrids, but this is the first to be confirmed by DNA analysis. In 1943, Clara Helgason described a male bear shot by hunters during her childhood. It was large and off-white with hair all over its paws. The presence of hair on the bottom of the feet suggests it was a natural hybrid of Kodiak and Polar bear.

In some species, hybridisation plays an important role in evolutionary biology. While most hybrids are disadvantaged as a result of genetic incompatibility, the fittest survive, regardless of species boundaries. They may have a beneficial combination of traits allowing them to exploit new habitats or to succeed in a marginal habitat where the two parent species are disadvantaged. This has been seen in experiments on sunflower species. Unlike mutation, which affects only one gene, hybridisation creates multiple variations across genes or gene combinations simultaneously. Successful hybrids could evolve into new species within 50-60 generations. This leads some scientists to speculate that life is a genetic continuum rather than a series of self-contained species.

Where there are two closely related species living in the same area, less than 1 in 1000 individuals are likely to be hybrids because animals rarely choose a mate from a different species (otherwise species boundaries would completely break down). In some closely related species there are recognized "hybrid zones".

Some species of Heliconius butterflies exhibit dramatic geographical polymorphism of their wing patterns, which act as aposematic signals advertising their unpalatability to potential predators. Where different-looking geographical races abut, inter-racial hybrids are common, healthy and fertile. Heliconius hybrids can breed with other hybrid individuals and with individuals of either parental race. These hybrid backcrosses are disadvantaged by natural selection because they lack the parental form's warning coloration, and are therefore not avoided by predators.

A similar case in mammals is hybrid White-Tail/Mule Deer. The hybrids don't inherit either parent's escape strategy. White-tail Deer dash while Mule Deer bound. The hybrids are easier prey than the parent species.

In birds, healthy Galapagos Finch hybrids are relatively common, but their beaks are intermediate in shape and less efficient feeding tools than the specialised beaks of the parental species so they lose out in the competition for food. Following a major storm in 1983, the local habitat changed so that new types of plants began to flourish, and in this changed habitat, the hybrids had an advantage over the birds with specialised beaks - demonstrating the role of hybridization in exploiting new ecological niches. If the change in environmental conditions is permanent or is radical enough that the parental species cannot survive, the hybrids become the dominant form. Otherwise, the parental species will re-establish themselves when the environmental change is reversed, and hybrids will remain in the minority.

Natural hybrids may occur when a species is introduced into a new habitat. In Britain, there is hybridisation of native European Red Deer and introduced Chinese Sika Deer. Conservationists want to protect the Red Deer, but the environment favors the Sika Deer genes. There is a similar situation with White-headed Ducks and Ruddy Ducks.

- Jandy Smith

as a scientist i agree and disagree, hybridization in the wild does occur, but often times the offspring turn out to morons. every once in a while you get lucky in the wild and if enough hybrids are successful and better than the parent species you get Gold. but hybridizing in the hobby is just wrong, you have no idea what yur gna get, ppl use the argument "well they hybridize in the wild naturally, so it must be okay" were tht the case then why isnt there a thriving established population? these are exceptions not the rule

Breeding hybrids in my opinion should be left up to the hobbiest and their intrests...I havent breed any hybrids but who am I to say someone who bought their fish and used their money to tell them what they can and can not breed. I breed many cichlids all in species only tanks to help keep the species alive but that my intrest you know, and like I said who am I to say that crossing on fish with another fish is wrong if their geno are so close. Its not my money and not my tank....many people just buy fish to look at and they happen to spawn in their tank and then they have overcrowding which leads to LFS getting them and to sale to the public and if they like them and buy them then that is the customers choice. And people talk bout hybrids and how it cuts lifespans down and makes them stupid fish. What bout us breeders of purestrains we start out with sibbling fish groups of 6 to 10 to get our breeders and they pair off inbreeding doenst effect this as well? so to sit here and act like hybrids is a bad thing then we need to look at the hobby as a whole and there bad sides to every side of the hobby why poke the hybrids for? You have many hybrids in all species in the wild even in human population but who gives me or you the right to judge and say that it is wrong? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

CichlidChris wrote:

Breeding hybrids in my opinion should be left up to the hobbiest and their intrests...I havent breed any hybrids but who am I to say someone who bought their fish and used their money to tell them what they can and can not breed. I breed many cichlids all in species only tanks to help keep the species alive but that my intrest you know, and like I said who am I to say that crossing on fish with another fish is wrong if their geno are so close. Its not my money and not my tank....many people just buy fish to look at and they happen to spawn in their tank and then they have overcrowding which leads to LFS getting them and to sale to the public and if they like them and buy them then that is the customers choice. And people talk bout hybrids and how it cuts lifespans down and makes them stupid fish. What bout us breeders of purestrains we start out with sibbling fish groups of 6 to 10 to get our breeders and they pair off inbreeding doenst effect this as well? so to sit here and act like hybrids is a bad thing then we need to look at the hobby as a whole and there bad sides to every side of the hobby why poke the hybrids for? You have many hybrids in all species in the wild even in human population but who gives me or you the right to judge and say that it is wrong? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

Everyone is intiled to thier opinion and yours is not a bad one. I don't think anyone should be forced to do something if they don't want to. Heck if someone want's to breed hybrids go do it, Just will be looked down upon by some. But hey I'm sure some don't mind that.

Again you are correct many people buy to look at and then it happens. But thats why we have the forum to educate and give people knowlege.

Line breeding or what you called interbreeding dose not effect fish like us humans. Meaning if a brother and sister fish do the deed it won't result in the same as a human sibelings doing the deed.

All good points!

After generations of breeding sibling fish will result in high numbers of culls as we call the deformed fish but you right it doesnt effect the fish same as humans and that is how I get all my breeders from fry I raise from other sources

Why are folks so quick to try to shut down these threads? There are no rules being broken and if anyone chooses to respond great if not great. I'm not going to bash hybrids in this post. I'll just remind you that you are not allowed to sell hybrids here! That's a great start!

After generations of breeding sibling fish will result in high numbers of culls as we call the deformed fish but you right it doesnt effect the fish same as humans and that is how I get all my breeders from fry I raise from other sources

Yes after many generations. But that is why its good to throw a new blood line in

always better to add new blood KMX you good guy bro

Ineed my friend. Always good to have good fish friends. YOu will hear / see my say that a lot.

hey, look i have an opinion about hybrids too!

Hybrids will be part of chiclid owners forever. Prime examble.....OB's!! As long as there is people looking the breeders will continue to raise them. I will admit I have seen some very colorful and pretty hybrids. Personally I now own 1 Red Frontosa bought when I first got into the hobby and did not know better, plus 4 Red Shoulder/Ruby Reds Fry crosses. Main reason for these was my first egg tumbler experience and my male Ruby Red died, figured if it failed I lost nothing. Also all females were were disposed of.

Just my opinion on hybrids.....If you are honest of their origin and someone wants them then sell them!! This hobby takes money for food and electric, we all can use a little help with these expenses.

Alton S wrote:

Hybrids will be part of chiclid owners forever. Prime examble.....OB's!! As long as there is people looking the breeders will continue to raise them. I will admit I have seen some very colorful and pretty hybrids. Personally I now own 1 Red Frontosa bought when I first got into the hobby and did not know better, plus 4 Red Shoulder/Ruby Reds Fry crosses. Main reason for these was my first egg tumbler experience and my male Ruby Red died, figured if it failed I lost nothing. Also all females were were disposed of.

Just my opinion on hybrids.....If you are honest of their origin and someone wants them then sell them!! This hobby takes money for food and electric, we all can use a little help with these expenses.

I second this to the fullest as well. I think you put it best, and I'm glad to see that someone else here knows what their talking about. The above picture that flapjack submitted is also a great looking fish. A Red Frontosa is really hard to come by and is purely an in line breed and no different really then what most people consider hybrids, and to all that say NO to hybrid or have any other "witty" slogan against hybrids saying they are man made, show your lack of knowledge of Hybrids and the possibility of two different species Naturally breeding in the wild to create the same thing that other breeders are creating now. Yes most Hybrids are created by people but there are some Hybrids that are wild caught as well, it does and can happen in nature, and to try and argue some kind of point against not liking that... well then you'll have to be mad at the fish for that one... Alton hit the nail on the head with this one. I in no way shape or form endorse Hybrids or encourage people to breed them but I'm also not dumb enough to think that they don't happen Naturally as well, and know just what Alton stated as well if there is always a want for them from people then they are going to be breed and sold. If you don't like them that's fine but I promise you they are not going anywhere because there is always going to be a demand for them. Prime Example just as he Stated are OB's which I'm sure almost all of you own.

I'd rather sell pure breeds and "make up money " for the food and what not. Hybrids always seem to have fadded colors and broken stripes ect ect....something always wrong. Just IMO.

To throw in my own opinion. My own tank of Mbuna's is a mix of "possible" pure bred, and some definite hybrids I didn't know at the time about the abundance of hybrids when I set up this tank thinking they were just strangely marked fish. I've had them for over 3 years and I love their attitude. "Will they be allowed to breed?" well if they do I'm selling them for hundreds of dollars, as they are all male.
My personal fear is the unknowing keeper that has hybrids breed and gives them to friends, the friends breed them and get some that look like a recognised strain, and sells them. Then we have pollution of the strain.
On the other hand, before I signed up for CAST I asked Cory about his plans for recording breeding, and for bringing in new blood, so the program's offspring would be of a wider gene pool.
Only when he confirmed that that was an integral part of the program did I sign up and have a 30G tank that will be available when required.
Keep hybrids by all means, in a male only tank. But keep females with fish they won't cross breed with. The less we have to use lake stock, the better.

I may be on-the-late-show chiming in right now but would like to share my hybrid experience. I purchased groups of 3's on all the fish in the original setup back in Oct 2010 hoping to grab at least one male and one female and a one point I thought we had 2 Rusty females and 1 Rusty male because 2 of the females kept having fry so naturally I figured the third one was the male strutting his stuff.......lol! But as the fry grew we noticed the light color and black spots and it didn't take long to figure out that the OB lab male was creepin'. We thought he was running off the male Rusty to have the females all to himself but OMG when we saw all three females holding at the same time we were shocked so even though some of the fry looked like normal Rustys they were all hybrids......just great. We now have 30 OB Lab/Rusty combos in a 16gal bow with no plans to sell and can't tell the sex right now. Even after this discovery we've had more hybrids and I've come up with the best solution by accident.........Compressiceps! We added 3 of these to the tank........not realizing they were carnivores and problem solved. What I do is when I see one of the Rustys holding I catch her and put her in the floating breeder box and once she releases them I take her out and leave the fry.......who mysteriously disappear when the lights go out. We think the 3 large Clown Loaches and Pleco also have been snacking too because they go up to the breeder box sucking up food that settles at the bottom and when the fry fall asleep and get too close to the grill sides they get sucked out by force. So a group of 30 fry can be reduced to zero in a matter of a few days. Hey they are adding to the food chain plus we know where the live food really comes from. We don't release them in the tank because they could hide for months and get bigger then we'd have another problem......too big to eat! I just couldn't dispose of them in the toilet.......anyone have a better solution I'm open to hearing it?

i have heard of placing them in a bag in the freezer or placing them in rubbing alcohol.

yep that should WORK....

re:cichlidlady-the fry looked like normal Rustys they were all hybrids......just great. We now have 30 OB Lab/Rusty combos in a 16gal bow with no plans to sell and can't tell the sex right now..........................
This is a perfect example of why people shouldnt breed fish at all.She doenst know what shes doing.1-cant id fish 2-only one tank,too small 3-mixing different fish in same tank and expecting pure bred 3-she's gonna have to do something with these fish anyway,even if they're pure 4-she added even more fish to an already overcrowded tank to kill offspring-really!
and cajun , just want to murder them cuz they dont have the right blood!
You guys have as much class as a pre-schooler

there is no reason to call people names. they asked a question and i answered it. i did not hint or stat this is what they should do or that i have done. so someone needs to breath and chill before they go calling people names!!!!

you suggest death but worry about name calling.

"i have heard of placing them in a bag in the freezer or placing them in rubbing alcohol".
"i did not hint or stat this is what they should do"-.....yeah,you did.