Setting up a 50 for Angels and eventually Discus

Just picked up a 50.. and redoing a 29... most of my tanks have been picked up used with an active gravel/substrate so cycling wasn't a problem. My goal for these two tanks will be to ultimately have 4-6 nice discus in the 50 and a few angels in a tetra tank. Both tanks will be natural plants of course. My plants of choice at this time (before all of ya with a ton more knowledge) are Crypts, Swords, and some Val... So, if you were in my position would you boil some soil in cloth sacks for the sub-strate or something else? My gravel topping will be close to 3 inches over what ever I put beneath it.. And do I even need anything underneath the gravel? I'll be seeding both of the tanks with the water from my 35 G water changes... the 29 over the course of a week with 2 w/c's on the 35.. and the 50 will take a bit longer.. or I might (sponge) a sponge filter off a local addict.. Any thoughts to add to mine or advice you'd like to offer up? Thanks in advance. Bill in Richmond, Va.

What I have done, and am doing now is the process below, and has wprked for me for years with all plants and the larger fish like discus:

1) use organic soil, dont need to boil it. All I do is put a bunch of it in a bowl or bucket, fill it with wayer then sift it through my hands ( or use some kinds of sifter, but that is hard sometimes becuase the water is basically mud) but i keep my hand holding back the main soil material, and drain out all the water. I do thise twice, that gets out al the major sediment and any possible chems that may be there
2) Pack the soil at the bottom of ur tank, lay a layer of at least an inch, pack it down tight, the entire bottom.
3) once its packed, then lay a towell all over it and press down, getting all the excess water
4) Put in sand on top of the soil, as your substrate, discus love the sand. But if you do choose to do gravel you can do so, I just love using sand. But I have also mixed sand and gravel as well and worked great.

But if you use the process I have done, all you have to do with any live plant is just hold the root with ur fingers and press it down until u feel the bottom of ur tank, and then swish some sand or gravel over the top, and boom its planted. Easy as cake!

Just my idea. Thanks =)

I forgot to add this, when putting your sand or gravel over the soil, just be sure to cover all of it, otherwise the soil sediments will come up through the substrate you put on top. But using packed spoil, in the process I gave you, allows your plants to thrive and offers them root room, without getting your tank all mucky.

mita that's how I do it also but not organic and boil it. HHMMM organic. A new trick I love it.

now where the hell do ya find organic soil? And vix.. you do go with sand versus gravel if I recall in your 50...

Just one final point to resolve some internal thinking.. doesn't sand eventually pack down and shuts off the exchange of the bio of the soil.. and doesn't sand inhibit the spreading of runners? And is it just normal play sand you'd pick up at a big-box garden shop? Bill in Va.

Get pool sand it's larger grain yes runners spread in any substrate,

And pool sand is found where? Bill (setting up tomorrow afternoon... GOT WORK tomorrow a.m. Bill

swimming pool filters use sand which is finer than regular sand.. so it can't be that kinda sand... bill

I go in after 12. then at 4 I have a our first Va Chapter board meeting. (yes we have a board!) LOL

The sand I use, is much finer than any other sand, well I dotn know about pool sand ( great idea btw) its a paving sand, mixed with silica. You can go to any landscaping company and find it. Also, organic soil is anywhere where you buy regular soil at, its more expensive but not by much. I use Royal Gold it is organic soil/compost mix, plants love it. But anywhere there is a feed/farm store, or garden store should have it.

And as far as the soil losing anything for the plants, not applicable if you use very fine sand. If you use coarse larger grit sand, it can, but use fine sand it it is A OK =)

I do not know about organic soil, but most of your "potting" soils is sterilized...organic-manure??? It should say sterilized on the bag somewhere...if not ask someone at a garden store (lowes/home depot might know,but it is usually faster to go to a specialty store to get confirmation) Pool filter sand is sold at both home depot and lowes usually outside with the pool/pond supplies about $7 a bag. I have tried serveral paving sands and man what a mess super fine grain sand or raises pH in the case of high desert sand sand way over 8. Pool filter sand is inert as far as pH goes. You do need to wash it several times I was gettting nasty bubbles after 5/6 washes.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out....I tried the boil dirt trick and 2 things happened
1. My wife really got pissed because mud got tracked into the house
2. Ruined my crab pot because dirt leaked out of pillow case and cooked to the bottom of my pot

Umm.. I worked a bit in the industry that makes "potting soil".. nothing but composted (sorta) ground "bark fine".. the typically unsaleable pine bark. composted with a bit of soil...
As far as sterilized.. isn't that NOT what I'm looking for? Sterized soil wouldn't provide the natural nutriments.. Or is that to be provided by the fish feces... ? That's why I'm kinda leaning towards a full gravel base... I'm confused.. and it's after 3 a.m. Thoughts are well appreciated ! Bill in Richmond, Va.

Most potting soils I use are made with soil and peat moss not pine and they are specified sterilized which does not take the nutrients out of it or remove the pH lowering effect of the peat moss....do not buy the stuff with styrofoam pellets they suck...

Full gravel is fine as well also check out the new clay substrates made by sea-chem (might be red sea I forget) or fluval both work well with plants and no cloudy dust up like flourite.

I've seen tanks running over a year with simple clay kiity litter for planted tank

that is find just make sure it's organic.. ;) that's what I have in my 25g a mix of organic soil, with pull filter sand, and top off with sms(soil master select) gravel is fine too but you will want to use root tabs, cryptocorynes are heavy root feeders... also discus will need to be at least 3.5 or they can get stunded in a planted tank..

See when I hear organic it just makes me think they didn't add miracle grow to it... everything else would still be in it. (Straight from the compost heap)
I agree with Elrollo your looking for something that is sterilized meaning that all the little bugs and worms are long gone. You want to keep either concentrated fertilizer(Miracle grow) and the little mites/bugs/worms out of the soil. Some soils come sterilized and if pillowcase/pantyhose method is pretty easy.

As for top substrate... pool filter sand I believe is a .44 to .55mm grain sand the #20 kind. It compacts perfectly(Not too light not too lose). If you use super fine grain sand it will tightly compact and could stall your nutrient uptake by the soil. Remember that even the most heavily fertilized soil will lose its potency after a long enough time if you have plants sucking them away. The CEC of soil then takes over allowing nutrients to be absorbed from the water and made available for plants but if it can't exchange anything then it means nothing.


Just me thoughts but I have used sand and gravel and overall I do like gravel more but if I wanted an easy planted tank substrate it would be boiled/sterilized dirt and PFS. You're talking about a grand total of $10 at Home Depot.

I'm drawing data I collected over 30 years ago which appears to be outdated. What was accepted back then was that sand was a no-no. It was said that the sand would compact too much and deny the exchange of "stuff"...making the substrate "sour".. real technical terms I know... I guess those established proceedures are now out the door! Off to HD for some organic soil and pool filter sand! Bill in Richmond, Va.

williemcd wrote:

I'm drawing data I collected over 30 years ago which appears to be outdated. What was accepted back then was that sand was a no-no. It was said that the sand would compact too much and deny the exchange of "stuff"...making the substrate "sour".. real technical terms I know... I guess those established proceedures are now out the door! Off to HD for some organic soil and pool filter sand! Bill in Richmond, Va.

Well kind of like I said before you are correct in thinking sand would compact too much BUT that is only if it is fine sand. The pool sand is not exactly course sand but it is also not play sand. It sits right in the middle and is made that way for pools to allow water to pass through still filtering but not compact. It is all about the grain of the sand.

The exchange of "stuff" in our case is quantified as CEC.
Pretty much how well it can absorb things from the water. So if we use fertilizer or root tabs a soil with high CEC will readily absorb these nutrients and store them for use later by plant roots. Keep in mind the planting soil is what is doing this not the sand. The sand would act as a barrier if compacted too much.

LINK: Cation Exchange Capacity

You would think it's a piece of cake to pick up a couple of bags of pool filter sand.. nope.. HD and Lowes sells the filters but not the sand! Pool supply companies are in the same boat! Can ANYTHING be easy? Guess not.

Haha wow! how much sense does that make!?! I wonder if there is any landscaping companies around that would have it.

I get my white sand from landscaping companies. Any major landscape or paving company has the sand. Any fine grain pool filter, paving, sand blasting or silica sand works. My problem is around here, no one has any tan right now. Agh! But if you buy sand from these places, you get incredible deals. 50-100 lb bags from $8-20 bucks max. The same sand at a specialty fish store ---- $25 for a 5 lb bag

I have heard that some people use quickcrete sand bags. From what I gather it is suppose to be the same gain size as pool filter sand. Not the cement just the sand to go with it.

I saw that on a blog elsewhere just an hour or so ago... My last foray into the big box stores didn't include going thru the CEMENT aisle.. Off to HD to check! Tks...

If you look online they will often have a stock check for stuff at the local stores depending how far away it is for you to go.