Anyone have any plants they are trimming down? I'll take the cuttings!

OK I've been reading and reading, and I've caught myself in a vicious circle. I need to add more plant matter into the tank, otherwise the fertilizers and fertilization regimen would only fuel algae growth. I can't even get a balance with the few sparse plants I have now.

So if anyone has snail-free plant clippings they can donate, that would be great! I'm in St. Louis, MO

Someone should be able to help you out for sure here but in the mean time why not just cut back on the ferts? If your using EI dosing it really won't matter that much anyways as long as you are not way outside what your plants can use.

I would highly suggest getting a Phos. and Nitrate test kit to help you get the proper balance. It took me some time to find it but what I did find out is that even in a semi heavily planted CO2 injected tank they don't use THAT much ferts. I mean if I followed the EI dose for my size tank there would be tons of excess and waste of ferts.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Well actually that's something I need help in, and I'm reading up on ferts. Thing is, I haven't been fertilizing up until now(sporadically gertilized in the past), but just recently started back up on it, thinking to find a dosing regimen and get my existing plants growing again. For about a year they have been pretty stunted in growth. Lo and behold, I started an algae bloom, BBA. I see the edges of my sword plants getting fuzzy brown, with speckled brown patches on the the broad part of the leaves.

So I did some reading and it's been suggested to plant more plants to out compete the algae, beacuse there is little in the way of flora that the algae is taking up the nutrients. However, I'm not going to spend beaucoup bucks on plants to while I'm still figuring out the fert thing.

I do have the tests; I'm just horrible at interpreting the colors(not color blind!) I just different hues in the tube as compared to the chart.

I have a 34 gal bowfront, about 20" tall, Current orbit lights, 2x65 dual daylight 6500K/10000K. Each bulb on for 6 hours with 4 hours both on together in the middle of the day, so I have 65W on for 2 hours, 130W on for 4hrs, and them 65W for the last 2 hours.

I have 2 swords that were once 14" tall, died down to 2" stubs but new leaves finally emerging and some random crypts(could be aponogeton?)

See the dilema? LOL sooo sad.

I'd love your insights. This weekend I'm going to test the water to see what levels are currently in the tank....

Haha believe me I know that plants are some tricky stuff ><

Do you have any idea what your water parameters are? Phosphates, Nitrates are the big ones to me at least.

Higher light "normally" means the plants will need CO2 (DIY or Injection) in order to truly "use" the light. If they can't use it the algae (an opportunist) will. So just putting in more ferts and turning on the lights won't mean your plants will grow but the algae may explode!

IMO with the plants you have there is really no need for ferts at this point, you could use some Micro nutrients if you want. Seachem makes a good product or you can use a dry CSM-B mix.
If nothing else I would getting a reading on what my Nitrates/Phos. was and most likely since you have been adding them is get them down from there. An excess is likely causing your algae problems(IMO)
The good news is that you can more or less water change your way down. If you want to drop the Nitrates down fast I highly suggest Purigen.
Once those are in check then you can just add them as the plants need them. If you can get your hand on some stem plants. I like stem plants as most grow very fast and many of them look great! They provide an extra buffer for ammonia and nitrite spikes as well.

The WPG (watts per gallon) rule is kind of outdated in some circles but as a general rule here as you can see you would have nearly 2 WPG with just 65 watts at 130 4 WPG. Given the plants you have and I take it no CO2? there is just no way your plants need that much light. Nearly all plants can be grown in lower light systems <2WPG. Some "high" light plants may require more 3-4WPG but for every person that says they needed high light there is someone who did the same with less haha. What is more important is finding balance Plant/Light/CO2/Fert = happy system and less algae growth.

Try to get some floating plant they eat up nutrients and filter the light I would also do no more than 90 watts on a 35 gal without CO2.

Thanks guys, I'm going to dig out my test kits this weekend and play chemist :) I'll try to take photos of the readings, as I have a hard time distinguishing color shades on these things.

The first year I had it set up it was great: good growth, no algae, and I was using DIY CO2. But then the plants slowed their growth, spot algae kicked in covering the old leaves, and the plants died down to this dormant looking state.

I do know that the local water here is hard and alkaline. Not really good with CO2, definitely not with DIY CO2, IMO, just not enough CO2 can be generated to buffer the GH? I've tried DIY and it's just not consistent anymore. I try to mix 50/50 RO water with my water changes whenever I can.

I also was thinking about just using one bulb, or rather, covering the 10000K sides of the dual daylight bulbs with foil. I've gone to a couple LFS in the area, and they both use 6700K colors, both aren't as brightly lit. So I might be able to knock 2 problems out with one solution. I've just never have been able to get any plant growth on the bottom of the tank, yet the plants aren't growing any taller than 3-4" high.

"What is more important is finding balance Plant/Light/CO2/Fert = happy system and less algae growth." I heat that! I guess I just haven't been reading the signs well enough to know what to do when the tank started to decline...

Good I am sure you will find some high reading with those test kits and that should help tell the rest of the story.

Anything from the 6.5k to 10k bulbs really should be fine for plant growing. Just like I said before and if you search around there are some great threads by Tom barr where he more or less says that people use too much light in there tanks. It is all about having the right amount of CO2 for the light you have and then once the plants get cranking on that they will need ferts but just going right to "more is better" AKA High Light Syndrome in the fish world does not always lead to amazing plant

DIY CO2 is always iffy if you make a batch that produces high amount of CO2 then it is used up in a week or so but if you make one that last a month IMO does nothing to the tank. I looked for "tanks" on CL and found that many people sold their old kegerator tanks for very cheap. (I picked up 2, 5# tanks and regulators for 75 total.

Ok so here's what I found from my tests:

PO4= 0ish
NO3=0+
pH=8
GH=12
Fe=0ish

The reason I use 0ish and 0+ is that the test tube shows a faint tint of color, but much less than the first color mark on the chart. The PO4 tube I'm just stumped. I'll put up a photo, or try to...

ummmm I should've rotated the photo first, sorry!

Here's my NO3 reading:

How old are these test kits? Is the expiration date on the box?

I see you are using the Hagen test kits not used to how those work but if they are anything like the API ones they have two test bottles for the NO3 test. On the API ones if you don't shake that 2nd bottle for at least 30 secs you will get a 0 reading no matter how much NO3 you have... I did this a few times and ended up with like 80 NO3

I would suggest you make some reference solutions... *LINK* Rex Griggs Ref.

Or a little shortcut to see if they work at all would be to take a small bottle (1L ish) take just a pinch of whatever fert and mix it in then take a reading. You will see something for sure you won't know how accurate without the reference solution but at least you know the test is being done correctly. If you don't see anything at first add a little more and test again. Test kits do go bad and that even if they are sparkling new!

*WHEW* I thought I was just going crazy! I'll have to try the reference test and see if that's accurate.

Viven, I'm not sure if there is an expiration date. I'll have to look.

Thanks guys for keeping my sanity in check!

Not to say the test are wrong but what gets me is the NO3 test even with no ferts... you should still see a little something just from fish waste and the nitrogen cycle unless the tank was kept SPOTLESS all the time hehe.

Like I was saying though the reference or just throw some in a bottle and see if you get anything at all. You could add a tablespoon worth to a 1L bottle and I believe you would see very high Nitrates given the concentration. At least there would be something besides 0ish

I'll check the reference this morning. I don't think the photo picked up the color, but the test tube was faintly pink, just wasn't as pink as the first notch on the chart.

What do you think about the PO4 test? I'm baffled; the charts are in green but my tube was yellowish?

I would do the same with the PO4 test kit to make sure it is working correctly. I know on the API test kits you get a yellow color when you add the first bottle and then the second bottle causes it to turn greenish in color. API test kit is add drops shake for roughly 5 secs add 2nd bottle drops shake again-wait 3-5 mins

I wanted to ask too is how are you adding your ferts in? Did you make up pre-made solutions (EX: Add 40ML=+5PPM NO3 in XX Gallons of water?) Or are you just dry dosing it into the water?

I actually haven't started back up to dosing yet. I did one dose, that's when the algae started to come back. So I stopped dosing until I figure out what's going on.

Right now I'm testing the NO3 test with some 1:4 diluted solution of KNO3 fert solution, and right off the bat it's colored, so I guess it's still working.

Here's a photo of the reference test.

If that's the case, my ferts are minimal. I think? eyes are starting to twitch....

that's what it looks like from the photo.

It would look like the best are working just fine then. SO that's a good thing really. At this point I would clean up all the algae I could and then reduce the amount of light on the tank. Let the plants start growing and keep adding more plants as you can.

It does make sense if you only dosed one time that the number would be low to be honest but what likely happened was the algae used it all up and grew like crazy from all the light. Turn back the light until you have a heavier plant load and see if that algae won't slow down.

If you want to dose a little fert it should be ok maybe try some excel (CO2 sub) and see if you can't get better plant grow from that. It is a hard game to balance and the numbers are always changing but stick with it and keep taking readings you will find the sweet spot!

I clean my tank once a week and the only algae I get is small bits on the glass of the tank. I do have 6 gouramis though that love to peck away at the algae on the plants as well as a clean up crew of 5 otos and 4 SAE's they keep the driftwood and leafy plants very clean.

OK, so what I'm going to do is maybe add Fe, maybe some excel, and I've already cut the lighting down a few days ago. A sword plants seems to be coming back to life; there are about 4 new leaves emerging, the most in about 6 months LOL. I guess if I can revive the swords back then the tank should be OK for new plants.

I can try a PO4 reference test. Oh, and the ferts I have are liquid solutions from the dry. I think I just don't see the signs of imbalance to tell what to do.

Well from your testing it looks like the numbers are pretty much 0 so with that in mind I would say that if you slowly add in ferts (enough to get it to register on the test low end) and keep adding excel every few days the plants should perk right up. Once the light is dialed in the plants will out compete the algae for the most part but honestly I don't think you can ever be completely without algae unless you monitor thinks closely it's not fun anymore haha. It is just a way of life IMO.

I can tell you that I dose about once weekly and it takes almost an entire week for the plants to use that up. The Trace elements I do 3 times a week and that seems to work well for them. When I first started with plants I was trying to do an EI dosing more or less and the plants grew well but so did the algae now I will admit that it was not perfect to begin with but compared to now the plant growth compared to algae growth I have (dosing once weekly and test maybe 2 times a week) there is no doubt that in many cases with these plants less is more...

Thanks for all your suggestions, strikingthematch! I don't mind some algae, it's just when it covers the broad leaves and causes them to die off with no new growth, that when it's a problem for me. We'll see; I'll keep trying!

I just read a thread on another forum, could the crypts that have been in the tank(they've seen out runners and shoots, have used up the nutrients fast than all of the other plants in the tank, causing the deterioration? Someone had posted with basically the same problem(initially great tank, good growth, but then plants deteriorated, algae came in..) but she was more diligent with her ferts, co2, and lighting. She replaced her bulbs, upped her co2, etc., but nothing really worked. She did mention though that her crypts basically stayed the same in the whole process, and someone responded that some plants do take up nutrients more readily than others. Could this be my AHA! moment? My crypts have been doing fine all this time, and it was about the time when they starting to send off runners when my tank started going downhill.

Perhaps for my system this is the culprit since I don't do regular fertilizing, no additional co2, to keep the crypts AND the other plants going, giving rise to the algae.

To be honest really no way to know now haha. It would make some sense that when runners start to form the plant will stock up or have to expend more energy to grow and maintain what it already had.

Only real way to know would be to keep at least a weekly track of fert usage. In other words if you dose 10PPM in the beginning of the week and then at the end you have 5 so you add another 5 = back to 10 then one week you test and you find 0 ppm = the plants used more that week so you might add 12PPM get it up to 12 and see if the next week it is down to 5 again...
sorry if that sounds complicated hard for me to explain haha pretty much the idea is to maintain a level that plants are happy with but algae has trouble competing.

I know this is why many people end up going to the EI way of adding ferts (it is just easier) but IMO if you spend a month or two and dial in a tank (you are now trimming plants because they grow too much) and you know exactly the amount of ferts they need on a weekly basis then at that point all the hard work pays off and you get away with testing (if you feel like it) once a month instead of weekly. For me this is what has worked. I have to get some pictures up but the plants are very happy!

I totally agree with you, just my NO3 test isn't that accurate. It only charts in increments of 5, even though my test tube is always in shades between the chart!

Only caveat to tracking is when you introduce a new plant or remove one for some reason. that would throw off the pattern.