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 breeding hybrids

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Flapjack
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PostSubject: breeding hybrids   breeding hybrids - Page 6 Icon_minitime2/16/2011, 9:14 am

First topic message reminder :

I just bought a tank recently that came with some interesting fish. The day after i set the tank up at my house I noticed that this hybrid
breeding hybrids - Page 6 Cichlid5

was breeding with a german red female and now she is holding eggs.. I think the males from the spawn could potentially be awesome candidates for all male tanks. Just something to talk about =)
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jb1edlover
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PostSubject: Re: breeding hybrids   breeding hybrids - Page 6 Icon_minitime2/19/2012, 10:42 am

Line breeding isn't as bad as hybrid (Making) however you can cross the line and many lines have been crossed. An "all yellow" Lab (Labidochromis Caeruleus) looks nothing like they do in the wild. They were line-bred to keep bright yellows and to do away with any black vertical barring. While very pretty in the tank they wouldn't stand a chance in the wild (trying to hide). Also line breeding when gone "too far" can make it hard to even identify what the fish really is! However with line-bred fish you could actually "back up" and breed your fish to show more black vertical barring (like in the wild) and get back to wild "Type" looking fish. Whereas with a hybrid once you create them you can't go back.....
JB
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Zanna_Girl
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Zanna_Girl

Posts : 49
Location : Tennessee
Favorite Fish: : Bettas and anything resembling an eel.

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PostSubject: Re: breeding hybrids   breeding hybrids - Page 6 Icon_minitime2/19/2012, 10:57 am

The line isn't gone. Just because a parent fish has spawned a hybrid does not mean it cannot breed pures. And as I said. If you don't like hybrids - DON'T BREED THEM. DON'T BUY THEM.

I, for one, would much prefer a healthy fish - whether it be hybrid or no - over some poor mutated little guy that has a nice yellow coloring. In horses and dogs, breeding for color and markings so heavily has ruined the gene pool so badly that you can't get a pure dog without an array of problems, and you can't get a Thoroughbred without shoddy ankles and laminitis in its family tree. The same applies to fish. If you keep breeding for coloration and marking alone, all other traits are forgotten. This includes mutations that *weaken* the gene pool. This is common sense, guys. There's a difference between responsible line and selective breeding and breeding like an idiot.
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Flippercon
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Flippercon

Posts : 1260
Location : Virginia Beach, VA
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PostSubject: Re: breeding hybrids   breeding hybrids - Page 6 Icon_minitime2/19/2012, 11:40 am

I agree with some that is said here. For example The EBJD. They are definitely line bred for the Blue. It is a recessive gene so getting numbers from the fish to produce 100% EBJD is tough. This is why Breeders of this specific fish breed WC into the line to strengthen the gene and keeping the Wild type genes in the mix. This takes a ton of time, pairs, space, and records to do successfully, but it strengthens the wanted fish and maybe one day an EBJD pair can produce fry

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KMX
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Location : Mansfield, TX
Favorite Fish: : African Cichlids of all kinds.

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PostSubject: Re: breeding hybrids   breeding hybrids - Page 6 Icon_minitime2/20/2012, 10:00 am

jb1edlover wrote:
Quote :

Because you can't "breed" them back to being pure.... once you cross that line it's gone. In my experience "MOST" of the hybrid folks are only in it for the money. I didn't say all of them but most of them. Hybrids are a big problem in the fish hobby. The only hybrid that's safe for the hobby is a dead one!
JB

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proyect01
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PostSubject: Re: breeding hybrids   breeding hybrids - Page 6 Icon_minitime2/20/2012, 2:12 pm

Mother Nature do hybrids and line breed too for diversity and adaptation to survive in their natural habitat (and takes hundreds or thousends of years)
Humans do for money and fame (thakes less time for sure)



Last edited by proyect01 on 2/20/2012, 8:11 pm; edited 2 times in total
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2SciCrazed
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PostSubject: Re: breeding hybrids   breeding hybrids - Page 6 Icon_minitime2/20/2012, 7:39 pm

Because you can't "breed" them back to being pure.... once you cross that line it's gone. In my experience "MOST" of the hybrid folks are only in it for the money. I didn't say all of them but most of them. Hybrids are a big problem in the fish hobby. The only hybrid that's safe for the hobby is a dead one!
JB[quote]

Sigh, then we wouldn't have any Mollies or Guppies or Platys or many of the currently popular Bettas like Dragons or many of the goldfish varieties..... I could go on-and-on...

I'll keep my 'hybrids' - my mollies, guppies and dragon Betta ... and breed them to be stronger and healthier ..... And I lose far more money than they'll ever bring me.. I wouldn't call all of these hybrids I've mentioned much of a problem to the fish hobby. Most of these common hybrids are the introduction to the hobby for the majority of enthusiasts..
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Dr. Who
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PostSubject: Re: breeding hybrids   breeding hybrids - Page 6 Icon_minitime2/20/2012, 8:36 pm

Your confusing mutations and hybrids. 2SciCrazed the fish you mention are mutations and color moryphs. Hybrid is the crossing of two different families.
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proyect01
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proyect01

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PostSubject: Re: breeding hybrids   breeding hybrids - Page 6 Icon_minitime2/20/2012, 8:45 pm

Quote :
Dr.Who wrote

Your confusing mutations and hybrids. 2SciCrazed the fish you mention are mutations and color moryphs. Hybrid is the crossing of two different families
.

good
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KMX
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PostSubject: Re: breeding hybrids   breeding hybrids - Page 6 Icon_minitime2/21/2012, 9:23 am

breeding hybrids - Page 6 858205

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Expand the hobby!

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Dr. Who
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PostSubject: Re: breeding hybrids   breeding hybrids - Page 6 Icon_minitime2/21/2012, 2:24 pm

Thank you Kory
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2SciCrazed
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PostSubject: Re: breeding hybrids   breeding hybrids - Page 6 Icon_minitime2/24/2012, 8:43 pm

Dr. Who wrote:
Your confusing mutations and hybrids. 2SciCrazed the fish you mention are mutations and color moryphs. Hybrid is the crossing of two different families.

You are quite a bit off Dr Who:

Practically all the mollies sold to aquarists are hybrids of a number of species found across Central America and the southern United States. Although it is common to describe aquarium fish as being Poecilia sphenops or whatever, in reality the genetics of all commercially produced fish is hopelessly muddled and applying any sort of Latin name to them is completely pointless.

It is possibly to identify the ancestors of the aquarium fish though, and doing so reveals some valuable clues as to the optimal conditions under which these fish should be maintained. Poecilia mexicana and Poecilia sphenops are two rather similar species both known as shortfin mollies. They are both rather variable in terms of colour, though typically greenish-silver with patterns of olive, brown, yellow, and black spots. It is often said, though not without any overwhelmingly compelling evidence, that Poecilia mexicana in particular was the 'rootstock' from which most of the aquarium strains of molly were derived by careful crossing with other species of molly displaying desirable features.

Two larger species are known as sailfin mollies, Poecilia latipinna and Poecilia velifera. Pot-Bellied Mollies, a hybrid of Mollienesia latipinna that is commonly crossed with the 'lyretail molly' which may be of the species - Poecilia latipinna, Poecilia sphenops, and/or hybrids of these two species, and perhaps other species of Mollys.


A few other species may also played some role in the development of the aquarium molly strains, most notably Poecilia salvatoris, a species known as the liberty molly in the United States thanks to its brilliant red, white, and blue colouration. Although not commonly traded, this beautiful fish does turn up periodically, as does the brackish water shortfin molly Poecilia gillii and the remarkable swordtail sailfin molly Poecilia petenensis.

http://www.squidoo.com/Black-Molly#module3869747
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/388449/molly


However, I will give you this - that the current scientific definition of true 'species' is: In biology, a species is one of the basic units of biological classification and a taxonomic rank. A species is often defined as a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring. While in many cases, this definition is adequate, more precise or differing measures are often used, such as similarity of DNA, morphology or ecological niche. Presence of specific locally adapted traits may further subdivide species into subspecies.

So, if we use this definition - Then all mbunas that interbreed and produce FERTILE offspring must be of the same 'species', So as would all of the Haps.

If, as you claim Dr Who, that a 'hybrid' is only a breeding between families - then we'd have to go all the way up the taxonomical ladder to the family 'Cichlidae' and then cross it with another family such as 'Poecilia' in order to get a hybrid. I doubt you were meaning to claim that interspecies mating WITHIN a family such as cichlidae is not hybridizing.

So please, Dr Who, read up on the development of an aquaruim group before you make blanket statements. The majority of mollies on the aquatic market are the very type of hybrids you all claim to hate to see in the cichlids.


Last edited by 2SciCrazed on 2/24/2012, 9:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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2SciCrazed
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PostSubject: Re: breeding hybrids   breeding hybrids - Page 6 Icon_minitime2/24/2012, 8:55 pm

BTW - that's the very reason that no one has bothered to do much color-inheritance research on the mollies, since the separate colors were brought in by adding the gene pools of different species already exhibiting some of the traits. Then enhancing the traits by inbreeding the hybrid offspring and selecting for greater and greater expression of the trait.

If true mendelian genetics held true in the molly - with albinos, silvers, melanistics, and yellows being recessives to the wild type - then when a black is bred to a silver, the F1 generation should be all wild type and then crossing them would bring about a predictable ratio of dalmation, black, silver and wild type. The co-dominance that is perported to be seen with all of the molly colors (I'm soon to be investigating this with next year's students) is more indicative of genes interacting from different species (such as is seen in the colors of mules)
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PostSubject: Re: breeding hybrids   breeding hybrids - Page 6 Icon_minitime

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