want to try saltwater and got ?

First topic message reminder :

got some questions... trying to work with a budget.. would a canister filter work for a saltwater tank, and if so what size would I need on a 25g (24x12x20) I need to turn the tank over 8-12 times right?

or would a sump be better?

protein skimmer would a hob one work, or should I get one that sits in the sump?

do I need a refugium?

lighting, what type of lighting would I need? would 2 t5 ho bulbs work or should I do 4 bulbs. I plan for some soft corals... or maybe just an anemone.

live sand - is just live sand right is any brand better then the other, and how many pounds do I need?

live rock, how many pounds do I need and what type is the best. what should I get? tonya,fiji,vanuatu,etc.

salt/water will more or likely just buy local and make a couple of trips.

power head, will more or likely get a hydor k-nano, or should I get a k 1 ?

fish --- I like the pajami cardinals, banggai cardinals, and royal dotty back. are this fish reef safe, is my tank big enough?

rats, well then did I just buy 30 pounds of live rock for nothing... I was going to upgrade to a 55g but don't know what I can put in there.... so only a few chromis could go in a 55g.......

so in my 25g I have
1 blue damsel
1 white and black strip damsel
1- domino damsel
1 tomato clown
1- malanarus wrasse
1- bangaii cardinal

would a small yellow tang be okay in a 55g and I could just sell him/her when it get's to big? what does a skunk clown look like.... how big does a sailfin get?

no you can do a 55 gallon nice. A 55 gallon is a good tank to learn on . You can put bleenies, dwarf angels,fu manchu lion, feather dusters, hawkfish, dottybacks, valenti puffer. Not necessarily all together but your filtration is going to matter on how you stock your tank and your bio load.

You can put a yellow tang in a 55. TRUST ME. I have moorish idols and yellow mask angels i know what im talking about you could set up a real cute tank nice setup that will be a great entry level salt tank.

cool cool, thanks.. then looks like I will up grade my tank. to bad it snowed again and it's 15 degrees out side or i would be cleaning it in the back yard I have a coupld of spot lights so i can see in the dark.. could a flame angel go with a yellow tang.. sorry I know I can research just easier to ask then to google for hours a pond hours... and search and search throw forums...

yes but i am not a big fan of flame angels look at a potters angel

http://www.petsolutions.com/storefront/product-view.ep?pID=PottersAngel&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=comparison&utm_term=104000L&utm_campaign=PottersAngel

just a pic

no problem ask away and if you ever want to chat give me a call.

My first tank was a 55 gallon and it was the best ever. I would say that you could pick up a 90 or 75 on craigslist for 100-200. I have one here in pittsburgh with chery canopy and stand 90 gallon tank 250 bucks that would be a great tank

nice I like that potter angel even better... could it go with the fish I have? oh and it's reef safe? awesome....

yes

cool, now I guess the real question is how do I go about upgrading and not messing any thing up... would this work... put the corals in there own bucket with some water from the tank. then catch the fish and put them in a bucket with water from the tank, and heater.... put the live rock with tank water in a bucket and power head. then live sand in to a bucket... drain the planted tank, put the plants a bucket, put those fish in a bucket.... then clean the 55g up...(snow is starting to melt, and should be fully melted in a couple of hours).... put the 55g on the stand, and then set the 55g up like I set the 25g up?

can I use tap water, with prime, and salt mix to make saltwater? is that a big no no?

no one ever said you couldn't put a YT in a 55 but should you? NO!
I can cram my Rottweiler into a 4ft crate but he wouldn't be happy there for long.
you seem hell bent on doing this so get the smallest Yellow Tang you can find "nickle sized" then when it out grows your tank and it will.. either upgrade to a larger tank or give it to someone who can care for it properly......................
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Tang
I absolutely love Yellow Tangs, they are beautiful fish. They are a fairly easy fish to take care off with the proper sized tank, which most recommend a 100 gallon tank minimum. They need plenty of swimming room. They also need plenty of greens in there diet, either through seaweed strips or green flake food or pellets. They will eat meaty food also IME. As long as they are being treated, and fed good they are model citizens in a reef tank. They do get big pretty fast so don't think you can get a baby and put him in a small tank because he will outgrow it.

I found mine to very easy to care for. It would eat pretty much anything you drop into the tank but you will need to supplement lots of green and red algae to feed it properly or you might have a hard time with lateral line disease. This fish even for its rather large size is very peaceful and a great addition to a larger tank. If you are feeding them correctly you can literally watch them grow. They are very active swimmers and are all over the place. I had mine in a 55 gallon as a juvenile but as everybody suggests you will need a much larger tank to house one properly. Mine loved green seaweed sheets.

One of my first fish was a Yellow Tang. After he got established in the tank, he would kill any newcomers. I could not add anymore fish. One day I noticed it had severely injured one of my Clownfish. I got rid of the Tang the next day. I recently replaced that fish with another Yellow Tang with much better results. The Tang goes about his business cleaning any bits of algae growing on the live rock. The fish adds such beauty, color and movement to the tank. It is a must have in an aquarium large enough to house one.

First Tang I ever bought. Great personality and very colorful. One of the hardiest of the Surgeon fish family. Very active swimmers and a minimum of 100-125 gallon tank required for all Tangs. They will eat anything offered but need a constant supply of seaweed to thrive. Will spend much of its day grazing the rocks for algae. Only one per Tang of its kind should be added. If you plan to keep more than one type of Tang this one should be added last. Yellow Tangs can be quite the bully.

The yellow tang is one of the most common fish available for tank owners. They are bright yellow beautiful fish. they are a very active fish and are constantly searching for algae. They are also very affordable at under $50 in most stores they are a great addition to tank over 125 gallons. Because of their price and beauty all too often people put them in a tank much too small for them. They do require plenty of swimming room to remain healthy. They can be prone to Ich. But with all that said if you have a tank over 125 gallons the yellow tank is a must

I often have lively debates with other aquarists as to the idea tank size for the yellow tang. Since I don't feel this review is the place for debate I will go with the prevailing wisdom on the matter and say the yellow tang needs a tank at least 72 inches long. You will often hear people say tank requirements in gallons, and with some fish that does work, however, with the yellow tang, we need to talk about length. Some tanks are the same gallons, but are taller, and therefore not as long. The tang is a swimmer! It loves to have a nice open runway in the tank so it can fly the length of it.

Potter's Angel may nip at large polyped stony corals, zoanthids, tridacnid clam mantles, and even some soft coral polyps. Therefore this fish, as true with most all Angelfishes, cannot be completely trusted.

I'm not hell bent... you answer what needed to be answered.. and that would be could a yellow tang go in a 55g yes, would it be happy no...

then what would do good in a 55g?

and could I use tap with prime and mix with salt mix to make saltwater or is it better to get r/o from a trusted LFS?

live sand I can get a 40lbs bag of care-a-bee-in sea for $25.00

I can by a saltwater mix 50g for around 15-20.

there's all kinds of fish that would be great in a 55 too many to list just pick fish that you like and do a little research on them like tank size/reef safe/aggression etc
Bangaii
red firefish
purple firefish
blennys
PJ cardinals
clownfish
it can go on and on
I wouldn't ever use tap water and prime ever...RO/DI is best or to get some jugs of distilled to mix your saltwater.
I dont know what a 40lb bag of caribsea sand costs in your area.
I buy my reef crystals for 55 bucks for a 200 gallon box so yes you can probably get enough to start your 55 with 20 bucks.

I will need a sump too right?

I think we went over this in the beginning of your thread.
if your tank drilled?
is this the 55 you used copper in???

copper sulfate? it was my 55g freshwater planted tank. it's not drilled.

if its going to be a quick transition yes. your not gonna want to use tap water though, not and put your livestock back in.

um okay... thanks. I do have an important question... what causes brown algae to a pair on the rocks and glasses, my nitrates are getting high right.... I'm keeping the lights off, what else can I do scrub my rocks and do a 20% water change?

should I take the rock out and scrub them with a never used tooth brush and then stick them back in the tank?

well your tank is still fairly new, and by brown in assuming your talking about diatoms, there are a few reasons you may be having diatoms. one may be lighting either on too long or not strong enough, your tank could still be cycling. I know there there is a general rule of thumb for the "cycle" but i havent been in the hobby too long and ive notice that basically the longer you have it set up, the more...stable your system becomes. (IMO) so your tank may still be cycling slightly. your nitrates could be a bit high. you may need some more snails, couple turbos and a few astrea's work wonders. scrubbing it off wont work at least not for long. algae has to be...starved out basically. its feeding off of something or a combination of things, you just have to find out. water change wouldnt hurt if your having a nitrate issue. what are your parameters? and how long are you lights on. and what type of lighting do you have have on your 25 again?

well the bad thing is I don't have a saltwater test kit.(going out to by one today)... I only have a freshwater test kit... and I don't know how old it is. I want to say 6-8 months old.

I don't have any type of clean up crew but it I need it I will buy it... my problem is I more or likely need to slow down.... and remember this is a saltwater tank and not a freshwater tank...

lighting is from 10am to 8 pm. should make the lighting period short say 12-8 or 12-6 or 10-6 ?

this didn't start till I added a few more pieces of live rock, and was given some corals, and the guy(kid 18-21) said i need to dose Cals. so I dosed a few drop of kent marine cals. in there...

I also added my tomato clown, and 3 damsel all at the same time. after acumating them one day...

now I'm giving my self my own advice. slow down slow down slow down.........

some one help me with logic and reason. Ha, I think I just went to fast, or or a few LFS told me my tank was "cycled" but not fully cycled.

would it make since to trade in my malanurus wrasse,my tomato clown, and the mean damsels, and get a small school of chromis. also I don't want to scrub my rocks do I. I guess i'm mini cycling. ?

I should learn with cheap fish and not expensive fish... I would reather have a 5 dollar fish die then a 35 dollar fish die.

lighting is in the canopy each bulb has it's own reflector. hagen t5 ho ballast 24wx2/39wx2, 1- current 10,000k (new), and a hagen marine glo(antic) so I have 48w over a 25g(24x13x20) with the bulbs 2-3 from the top of the canopy.

anything else you ladies/guys need to know?

I don't mind the brown algae it just doesn't look right... it looks like a kid throw some play sand in there and it feel on the rocks.

I did find this article.(cont. to next post.

Tank maturity seems to be even more of an issue without the sand bed. The sand bed just takes some time to get enough nutrients in it to sustain populations and stratify into somewhat stable communities and become functional. So, here's the tank reason, and then I'll blow into some ecology for you. When you get a tank, you start with no populations of anything. You get live rock to form the basis of the biodiversity - and remember that virtually everything is moderated by bacteria and photosynthesis in our tanks. So liverock is the substrate for all these processes, and also has a lot of life on it. How much depends on a lot of things.

Mostly, marine animals and plants don’t like to be out of water for a day at a time...much less the many days to sometimes a week that often happens. So, assuming you are not using existing rock from a tank, or the well-treated aquacultured stuff, you have live rock that is either relatively free of anything alive to begin with, or you have live rock with a few stragglers and a whole lot of stuff dying or about to die because it won’t survive in the tank. Some, if not most, rock exporters have a “curing process” that gets rid of a lot of the life to begin with and some of this is to keep it from dying and fouling further, but some of it would have lived if treated more carefully.

From the moment you start, you are in the negative. Corallines will be dying, sponges, dead worms and crustaceans and echinoids and bivalves, many of which are in the rock and you won't ever see. Not to mention the algae, cyanobacteria, and bacteria, most of which is dehydrated, dead or dying, and will decompose. This is where the existing bacteria get kick started. Bacteria grow really fast, and so they are able to grow to levels that are capable of uptaking nitrogen within...well, the cycling time of a few weeks to a month or so. The “starter bacteria” products give me a chuckle. Anyone with a passing knowledge of microbiology would realize that for a product to contain live bacteria in a medium that sustains it would quickly turn into a nearly solid mass of bacteria, and if the medium is such that it keeps them inactive, then the amount of bacteria in a bottle is like adding a grain of salt to the ocean compared to what is going to happen quickly in a tank with live rock in it.

However, if you realize the doubling time of these bugs, you would know that in a month, you should have a tank packed full of bacteria and no room for water. That means something is killing or eating bacteria. Also realize that if you have a tank with constant decomposition happening at a rate high enough to spike ammonia off the scale, you have a lot of bacteria food...way more than you will when things stop dying off and decomposing. So, bacterial growth may have caught up with the level of nitrogen being produced, but things are still dying...you just test zero for ammonia because there are enough bacteria present to keep up with the nitrogen being released by the dying stuff. It does not necessarily mean things are finished decomposing or that ammonia is not being produced.

Now, if things are decomposing, they are releasing more than ammonia. Guess what dead sponges release? All their toxic metabolites. Guess what else? All their natural antibiotic compounds which prevents some microbes from doing very well. Same with the algae, the inverts, the cyano, the dinoflagellates, etc. They all produce things that can be toxic – and sometimes toxic to things we want, and sometimes to things we don’t want. So, let's just figure this death and decomposition is going take a while.

OK, so now we have a tank packed with some kinds of bacteria, probably not much of others. Eventually the death stops. Now, what happens to all that biomass of bacteria without a food source? They die. Some continue on at an equilibrium level with the amount of nutrients available. And, denitrification is a slow process. Guess what else? Bacteria also have antibiotics, toxins, etc. all released when they die. But, the die-off is slow, relative to the loss of nutrients, and there is already a huge population, and yet you never test ammonia. "The water tests fine.” But, all these swings are happening. Swings of death, followed by growth until limited, then death again, then nutrients available for growth, and then limitation and death. But, every time, they get less and less, but they keep happening – even in mature tanks. Eventually, they slow and stabilize.

What's left? A tank with limited denitrification (because its slow and aerobic things happen fast) and a whole lot of other stuff in the water. Who comes to the rescue and thrives during these cycles? The next fastest growing groups...cyanobacteria, single celled algae, protists, ciliates, etc. Then they do their little cycle thing. And then the turf algae take advantage of the nutrients (the hair algae stage). Turfs get mowed down by all the little amphipods that are suddenly springing up because they have a food source. Maybe you've bought some snails by now, too, or a fish. And the fish dies, of course, because it may not have ammonia to contend with, but is has water filled with things we can't and don't test for...plus, beginning aquarists usually skimp on lights and pumps initially, and haven't figured out that alkalinity test, so pH and O2 are probably swinging wildly at this point.

So, the algae successions kick in, and eventually you have a good algal biomass that handles nitrogen, produces oxygen through photosynthesis, takes up the metabolic CO2 of all the other heterotrophs you can’t see, the bacteria have long settled in and also deal with nutrients, and the aquarium keeper has probably stopped adding fish for a spell because they keep dying. Maybe they started to visit boards and read books and get the knack of the tank a bit. They have probably also added a bunch of fix-it-quick chemicals that didn’t help any, either. Also, they are probably scared to add corals that would actually help with the photosynthesis and nutrient uptake, or they have packed in corals that aren't tolerant of those conditions.

About a year into it, the sand bed is productive and has stratified, water quality is stable, and the aquarist has bought a few more powerheads, understands water quality a bit, corallines and algae, if not corals and other things are photosynthesizing well, and the tank is "mature." That's when fish stop dying when you buy them (at least the cyanide free ones) and corals start to live and grow and I stop getting posts about "I just bought a coral and its dying and my tank is two months old" and they start actually answering some questions here and there instead of just asking questions (though we should all always be asking questions, if not only to ourselves!).

So, ecologically, this is successional population dynamics. Its normal, and it happens when there is a hurricane or a fire, or whatever. In nature though, you have pioneer species that are eventually replaced by climax communities. We usually try and stock immediately with climax species. And find it doesn't always work.

Now, the "too mature" system is the old tank syndrome. Happens in nature, too. That whole forest fire reinvigorating the system is true. Equally true on coral reefs where the intermediate disturbance hypothesis is the running thought on why coral reefs maintain very high diversity...they are stable, but not too stable, and require storms, but not catastrophic ones....predation, but not a giant blanket of crown of thorns, mass bleaching, or loss of key herbivores.

This goes to show what good approximations these tanks are of mini-ecosystems. Things happen much faster in tanks, but what do you expect given the bioload per unit area. So, our climax community happens in a couple years rather than a couple of centuries. Thing is, I am fully convinced that intermediate tank disturbance would prevent old tank syndrome.

My advice on starting tanks is to plan the habitat you want. Find the animals and corals you like. Learn about the tiny area of the reef you will try and recreate, and do not try to make a whole coral reef in one tank. Then, purchase the equipment required to emulate that environment. Then, add the appropriate types of substrate (sand, rubble, rock, whatever) and wait long after “your tank water tests fine” before you add fish and corals. First, add herbivores and maintain water quality. Water changes, carbon, skimming, alkalinity, calcium. Keep the water of high quality, even for things you can’t test for. Wait a few months and enjoy the growth that will happen. Then, add some of the species that you plan to keep….invertebrates and corals. They help create the environment, and also photosynthesize, add biodiversity, stabilize nutrients, etc. Then….then….add fish. The fish will have a reef as their new home. They won’t be stressed by this variable bouilllabaise of water and a strange habitat that keeps changing as things are added or die. They will have a stable tank with real habitat, and then the original concept you imagined will have happened.

okay I used my freshwater test kit.

.25 ammonia
0 nitrite
8.2-8.4 ph

what should I do?

Honestly....don't take this wrong. You need to stop. Take a breath and let your tank come into it's own for a little bit. And honestly I think you just mentioned about 5 fish that you have in there and in the future you may have water quality issues because of that much bioload. Even the clean up crew that you don't have yet adds bioload. Corals...yep they add too.

It is very hard to have a tank filled with water, sand & rocks and just look at it but that is what needs to happen in the beginning until you get your cycle really going. Then add fish one at a time not four at a time. Your biological filter (live rock...if it really was live) is just a baby at this point and needs to build up over time to be able to keep up with the waste produced by the fish. So you add one fish and you bacteria grow. Then you add another and it grows again. This way you don't have ammonia spikes & nitrates going crazy.

Now that brown bloom of algae that you are talking about? It would probably be handled by some snails & hermits but keep in mind that sometimes hermits kill snails for their shells so get snails that are smaller than the hermits. Emerald crabs are great for cleanup too.

Keep asking questions but really I think you just need to slow down. My tank was a year old in October and I have three fish in there. You know what? They have all been in there longer than since May of last year! Pretty good for a first time SW setup and my ocellaris (orange one) has been in the tank since about 2-3 weeks past setup. He is my first SW fish and still going strong. I lost three fish since I started ... one blenny (didn't eat algae and died) and one gramma (sick when I bought it) and the gramma took down my original firefish.

You really just need to determine what you actually want to keep and work it out from there. If you start aggressive you have to stay aggressive. You can't go putting a peaceful fish in once you have aggressive ones (and you do BTW).

I guess I'm really just saying ... slow down and let your tank do it's thing. Monitor it to be sure nothing is going out of whack...but slow down. :)

Oh and since you do have fish in there and your ammonia is at .25 I would do a 10-20% water change just to help them stay safe. But if you didn't have fish in there you could let the ammonia alone since it is probably part of the cycle.

great article!it basically explains in detail what i was tryin to get at lol. ok well when u add new livestock/live rock, your tank will cycle, mini cycle or adjust to its new additions and eventually will level out. give it a week or two and see how it does, get a mag float glass cleaner for your glass. if it increases try cutting back ur lighting. you probably have high nitrates due to your heavy stock list in a small tank. thats a fair amount of wste in a small area. you can try a h2o change weekly, this will reduce nitrates. how much and often do u feed? i have 4 fish in my 55 n they get fed 2-3 times a week, there are always little bits floating around they pick at, and with the nassarrius snails and pistol shrimp constantly stirring up sand, they stay fed, inverts stay fed, and corals stay fed.

Thanks, I will slow down, and research some more... what would be light on the bio load?
I was feeding frozen baby brine shrimp 2 times a day. would flakes be better....

lighting is 10am to 8-am. t5 ho 24w x 2. would just a pair of mated clowns be to much of a bio load in there, or a small school of say 5-6 green chromis, or 5-6 pink chromis work?

I think I need to just start slow and with cheap fish.. also what will my corals eat?

does dosing food for the corals do anything on the bio-load, or any thing to the live rock?

some one also told me to take the piece of live rock I added out, and I did. that helped.
I also scrubbed some of the rocks with a never used tooth brush and that helped.

I don't want to get a head of my self, I would like to see a school in my tank.. so what would work if I wanted to do a school?

I plan to get my water tested again once a one of the LFS open what would be a good but not expensive test kit to get. would the api ones at petsmart or petco work?

what about the hydrometer get any of them?


okay here is a list of what I really like

Firefish Goby,all different types of clowns, Green Chromis,pink/peach damsel..

I'm going to try to answer all of these....

plantedtankdude wrote:

Thanks, I will slow down, and research some more... what would be light on the bio load?
I was feeding frozen baby brine shrimp 2 times a day. would flakes be better....
Feed whichever you like but I only feed once every other day. If feeding frozen foods they should be rinsed in RO to eliminate phosphates (they cause algae).

lighting is 10am to 8-am. t5 ho 24w x 2. I cut my lighting back to 7-8 hrs a day and it helped greatly with the algae
would just a pair of mated clowns be to much of a bio load in there, or a small school of say 5-6 green chromis, or 5-6 pink chromis work?Clowns would be perfect along with one or maybe two other small fish (firefish you mentioned below would be good) Actually exactly what is in my 29 gallon


I think I need to just start slow and with cheap fish.. also what will my corals eat?
that depends on the coral. I have all zoas, shrooms, green star & yellow polyps. They filter feed and grab bits of fish food on it's way by. Some people do food them so I can't completely answer this one.


does dosing food for the corals do anything on the bio-load, or any thing to the live rock?
Any food into the water adds to the bio-load. Food in / waste out


some one also told me to take the piece of live rock I added out, and I did. that helped.
I also scrubbed some of the rocks with a never used tooth brush and that helped.
maybe the LR you have is contaminated with something, mine acts as complete natural filtration in my tank (I don't even have filter material in my HOB right now)


I don't want to get a head of my self, I would like to see a school in my tank.. so what would work if I wanted to do a school?

I plan to get my water tested again once a one of the LFS open what would be a good but not expensive test kit to get. would the api ones at petsmart or petco work?

what about the hydrometer get any of them? How do you know your salinity without this? It is the very basic and important part of testing your water.



okay here is a list of what I really like

Firefish Goby,all different types of clowns, Green Chromis,pink/peach damsel..

Like I said earlier just take your time and read and find out what you want to do before rushing into it. You will enjoy your tank a lot more when you aren't trying to fix what's wrong all the time.